Curse

Del · Mar 19, 2011, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

They recharge faster a lot and their casttime is reduced to 1sec, pretty huge buff on eles in overal then, I didn't talk about dps.

The huge improvement to attunements in the bigger picture, does little to help eles in pve. Now they can just spam their inefficient skills while worrying less about their attunements getting stripped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

For pvp the attunement change is a big diff, believe me...

No shit, but that has nothing to do with all the PvErs currently bitching about invoke.

Imaginos · Mar 19, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon

Perhaps I did not phrase it correctly, but its well documented that adding new skills to the system (and splitting skills for PvP effectively adds another skill into the system) deteriorates the client. Sorry that your too ignorant to at least research your sh!t before writing it off as BS.

I've searched the official wiki now and tried a few terms in google, along with scouring the official website and have been unable to find this info. Please link it as i have never heard of any such thing, nor can I find any info on this.

DiogoSilva · Mar 19, 2011, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

The huge improvement to attunements in the bigger picture, does little to help eles in pve. Now they can just spam their inefficient skills while worrying less about their attunements getting stripped.

For a PvP update, that's not bad at all PvE-wise. It will also indirectly help Invoke, as that thing destroyes your energy if you are not enchanted. Wasting a slot for a cover enchant (for those who still do that) won't be that necessary anymore. And the half cast time means less time buffing itself and more damanging the enemy.

Yes, it still won't solve most of their problems. But to repeat, for a pvp update, that's not bad at all for PvE. I hope more PvP updates are like that.

EDIT: And instead of splitting IL, they could very well split other, more useful pve-wise skills. Or even better, buff some useless elites for PvE use, without the need of splitting to not affect the game's performance.

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Not enough monsters have Consume Soul to justify the whining.

Killed u man · Mar 19, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55

PvE'ers need to stop crying wolf over the Invoke nerf. It still has 6 second recharge meaning you'll be able to cast atleast 2 spells in between every Invoke. Obviously one of them will be Chain, and then you can still throw in a utility spell every 6 seconds. (Which is more than the ele will have energy for)

This update will have no effect on PvE eles whatsoever. The people claiming it will need to re-educate themselves with the terms: cast time, aftercast, recharge, energymanagement, DPS and utility.

I'm still all-in for an Ele buff, as I think they're the most "useless" PvE profession atm (aside from ER niche), as in they can't even effectively abuse secondaries. (Again, aside from ER niche)

Rangers and Paragons, while pretty bad have the option to go /D and pump 80-90% of the damage a dervish could pump without dying every second minute. Eles, in that aspect, have nowhere to go, and really have to choose between doing less-than-mediocre damage or brainless-buttonbash-prot.

Out of all the professions, Eles really have the hardest time in PvE, so I can see why people are so upset about this update, but get real. The invoke "nerf" is actually a buff. More DPS and still more than enough room/time for utility.

ogre_jd · Mar 19, 2011, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

Eles are buffed now tho, their attunements are waaay better as before.

No, just slightly less irritating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Mistrust, etc. (for the record, mistrust rapes)

...except, of course, when your H/H immediately run over to your target (even when currently engaged with their own target that's still alive) and kill it before the 2s cast (or 1.25s or whatever Fast Casting'll get it down to) is finished, which happens waaaaaaaaaaaaay too often to me. :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

This update will have no effect on PvE eles whatsoever. The people claiming it will need to re-educate themselves with the terms: cast time, aftercast, recharge, energymanagement, DPS and utility.

Damage Per Second isn't everything. Damage Per Shot is just as important - and even more important when you're going after stuff that needs to die ASAP (enemy Monks, Mesmers, and rezzers).

Coast · Mar 19, 2011, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Seems like many people realy have zero to minimal insight of how the game works, i'll just leave it at that.

Killed u man · Mar 19, 2011, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Damage Per Second isn't everything. Damage Per Shot is just as important - and even more important when you're going after stuff that needs to die ASAP (enemy Monks, Mesmers, and rezzers).

Since no build, outside of an organized spike, can kill a single target in under a second, DPS is important. Spike damage, as you claim, is obviously important aswell, but only under very specific conditions. Those conditions most likely being the enemy being balled up by a tank, and then killing them as fast as possible before they scatter. (Keystone, etc)

So don't mistake me for having said spike damage isn't important, it is. I merely claimed that the overal DPS from an ele went up. And since you won't kill a single target with 1 skill, that's all that matters.

If invoke was a single-kill-skill, I'dd agree with everyone else here and say they got nerfed. But the reality is you need 2-3 Invokechains (So including chain lightning) before you can kill a target, so they benefit from the overal DPS buff.

Eles in a balanced team, however, will most likely get to use 1 Invoke and chain before all enemies are dead, so in that aspect, eles 'lost' about 10 overal spike-damage. That's a fully true statement, but the problem doesn't lie in losing the 10 damage on Invoke, it lies in the fact that armor ignoring damage severely outdamages armor-respecting damage. In other words, this nerf didn't make eles worse than they already were.

But as Coast and many other people pointed out, Eles need more overal spike damage and a bit more DPS.

Jeydra · Mar 19, 2011, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Out of all the professions, Eles really have the hardest time in PvE, so I can see why people are so upset about this update, but get real. The invoke "nerf" is actually a buff. More DPS and still more than enough room/time for utility.

Lol? You seriously think having to cast more spells more often gives you more room / time for utility? This kind of statement would have people start thinking that Searing Flames Eles are better than Invoke Eles.

AndrewSX · Mar 19, 2011, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

In other words, this nerf didn't make eles worse than they already were.

This sums the overall feeling about this update respect eles. Attunements changes were expected like 2+ years ago. Invoke change (buff or nerf is matter of opinion seems) is quite pointless in the discussion about the ele inestistance in most of PvE.

PvP wise, toning down IL for 10 dmg while reducing cooldown wont change really things, but the change to 1 cast/30 recharge of the attunements will, cause ele w/o attunements=no ele(unless using superior ene-management like mind blast,ether prodigy, prism or whatever...which also are all elites).

Killed u man · Mar 19, 2011, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol? You seriously think having to cast more spells more often gives you more room / time for utility? This kind of statement would have people start thinking that Searing Flames Eles are better than Invoke Eles.

Under spefic conditions, SF IS better than Invoke.

I also never said Invoke eles now have more room for utility, start by reading my post first before jumping to conclusions. But hey, feel free quoting where I said Invoke eles will have more utlity after this update.

I said that even with the shorter recharge, there will still be enough time to cast a utlity spell every 6 seconds, which is more than enough for PvE standards.

I never made any claims as to saying where Invoke lies in the overal PvE balance ratio, as I know Invoke already is shit compared to mesmers, splinter, etc. I merely said that eles did not loose any utlity with this update, as the bar simply does not have room/energy for that much more utility.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 19, 2011, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Tbh, what I think is the big problem here is that people were expecting Anet to show the eles some love in PvE, but instead they got a mediocre buff/nerf (however you choose to see it) and that's why they are mad.

Only problem with buffing eles up the ass in PvE will be that in HM, ele enemies will be even more dangerous than they already are. That's the big irony of the situation, the profession that sucks the worst in HM is also feared the most in HM, because we don't have ridiculous amounts of armor vs everything. People say "give ES 3% AP in PvE". Or "make IL nearby in PvE", well, I'd like to see you take on a Margonite Anur Su with ~50 ES and 20 Air Magic. 175% Armor penetration (you'll have negative armor, gg) at 130 damage + enraged is gonna be happy fun time. I can't wait to see them hit me for 2k damage.

Anet is probably thinking about it, but they should make a way to make Eles viable again without making every area where 1 ele runs around impossible to VQ.

EDIT: forgot about this, but IL is even more ridiculous now. Same damage, only armor ignoring and 2 sec cast. Eles need some love and fast.

Jeydra · Mar 19, 2011, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I said that even with the shorter recharge, there will still be enough time to cast a utlity spell every 6 seconds, which is more than enough for PvE standards.

Let's see your Air Elementalist juggle Chain Lightning, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Shell Shock, Lightning Orb, Aegis and Prot Spirit every 6 seconds. Or Kaolai, MBAS and Spirit Light, for that matter.

PS: Lava Arrows does 69 damage / 3s, which is more than 90 damage / 6s, and therefore Lava Arrows is better than Invoke Lightning.

But this is exactly the same kind of logic that says post-nerf Invoke does more DPS than pre-nerf Invoke ...

AndrewSX · Mar 19, 2011, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

EDIT: forgot about this, but IL is even more ridiculous now. Same damage, only armor ignoring and 2 sec cast. Eles need some love and fast.

TBH, the damage is cold...but we still get the idea.
Expecially thinking that
1.this isn't a elite
2. is the 2nd necro skill that everyone get after creating a new char afaik(in prop at least).

*lemming* · Mar 19, 2011, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Consume soul isn't a pvp change and while it may not be used by the players it will certainly be used against them.

Yes, it is. Its poor interaction with spirit-based party healing GvG was the only reason it was nerfed.

Objectively speaking, Consume Soul (and Signet of Binding, which got a pretty crippling nerf recently) never should have existed anyway - hard counters like that are absolutely terrible from a game design perspective, but I digress.

gooeydark · Mar 19, 2011, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Yes, it is. Its poor interaction with spirit-based party healing GvG was the only reason it was nerfed.

Objectively speaking, Consume Soul (and Signet of Binding, which got a pretty crippling nerf recently) never should have existed anyway - hard counters like that are absolutely terrible from a game design perspective, but I digress.

Quoted for emphasis. All of you need to stop making this update seem to have any basis of off PvE balance.

gremlin · Mar 20, 2011, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Yes, it is. Its poor interaction with spirit-based party healing GvG was the only reason it was nerfed.

Objectively speaking, Consume Soul (and Signet of Binding, which got a pretty crippling nerf recently) never should have existed anyway - hard counters like that are absolutely terrible from a game design perspective, but I digress.

Oh right I understand, that sounds like a good reason for the alteration.
Guess spirit spammers will have to alter their play style when conditions affect them.
Thanks for that.

As an almost exclusive PVE player its hard to understand the problems of pvp.
I just hope anet have learned enough over the years to make both communities happy and indeed to make both sides of the game interesting enough that more players try both game types.

Not that I have heard much about any pvp parts to gw2.

LifeInfusion · Mar 20, 2011, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Late to this PvP ele discussion.

Consider it's a strippable 30 recharge energy management that you need (unlike Awaken the blood, which is the only skill close to attunements besides 10recharge 1/4 cast Healer's Boon/UA) not to nuke your energy (Invoke or Freezing Gust without attunements might as well be the only skill on your bar if you use it on recharge) versus something useful like Drain enchantment or Angorodon's Gaze. Keep in mind all elementalist stuff is priced with them in mind. It's not like you can say "screw it, I'm not using it" unless you're running serious energy management like Glowing Ice + Ether Prism + Glyph , Power Drain/Leech sig, or Ether Renewal. Winter's Embrace/Shard Storm/Blurred/Freezing Gust are 10 each; MoI is 15.

Invoke was only spike support when assisted with Shell shock (i.e. a 7-15 energy combo). Spamming it on recharge without cracked armor will net you really sad results.

The Invoke "rebalance" was a DPS buff (by minimal amounts of a MAXIMUM ~2-7DPS per 60 armor target) and a Invoke spike (or spike support) nerf. (see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=63)

Basically there's no use for air eles in HM PVE besides Intensity + Orb, seeing how the only other skill you can crank out is Chain Lightning with a 3 target cap.

Jeydra · Mar 20, 2011, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

The Invoke "rebalance" was a DPS buff (by minimal amounts of a MAXIMUM ~2-7DPS per 60 armor target) and a Invoke spike (or spike support) nerf. (see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=63)

Basically there's no use for air eles in HM PVE besides Intensity + Orb, seeing how the only other skill you can crank out is Chain Lightning with a 3 target cap.

That's the same kind of calculation that proudly declares that Immolate does 79 + 14 * 3 121 = damage / 5s, which is less than Flare's 69 damage / 1.75s, and therefore Immolate is weaker than Flare and three times weaker than Lava Arrows.

I'm not going to point out the problem with this calculation. I've done it enough times already. This proposed change to Invoke Lightning is, for all practical purposes, a nerf to DPS, not a buff.

Missing HB · Mar 20, 2011, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Only problem with buffing eles up the ass in PvE will be that in HM, ele enemies will be even more dangerous than they already are. That's the big irony of the situation, the profession that sucks the worst in HM is also feared the most in HM, because we don't have ridiculous amounts of armor vs everything. People say "give ES 3% AP in PvE". Or "make IL nearby in PvE", well, I'd like to see you take on a Margonite Anur Su with ~50 ES and 20 Air Magic. 175% Armor penetration (you'll have negative armor, gg) at 130 damage + enraged is gonna be happy fun time. I can't wait to see them hit me for 2k damage.

I'm not even letting you think of heroes teams there ( where of course you can't split 4 at least...)... I guess i should re-argue on that thread then

About consume soul update , correct me if i'm wrong but is it nerfed only because it kills easily 1 ritualist spirit or ...?